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Sopwith triplane rubber power.

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30 Oct 2024 22:19 - 31 Oct 2024 07:34 #1 by old ugly
Sopwith triplane rubber power. was created by old ugly
i am just new on here, from alberta canada.  my interest at this point in time is balsa and tissue rubber power planes. mostly WW1 but some a bit newer.
i have successfully crashed way more than have ever stayed in the air. my longest flight. aprox 50 seconds.
being old and retired i build lots but only fly a little bit.
this i just finished about a week ago. Sopwith triplane. it had one successful crash breaking off the tail and knocking the pilot out of the aircraft. he is no longer in it.
thanks all
tom
 
 


 
 
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Last edit: 31 Oct 2024 07:34 by Klipkopwildlife.
Thanks: Flytilbroke, Quorneng, jon.in.swansea

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31 Oct 2024 06:53 - 31 Oct 2024 07:00 #2 by Eric
Replied by Eric on topic Sopwith triplane rubber power.
Hello Tom.
Welcome to this group of model aviation looneys!  - - I think you are our first Canadian member.
There isn't much free-flight activity on here, but that isn't important. We cater for all kinds of aviation activity, providing it is legal! I think that 'Magpie' is the only other free-flighter at present.
WW1 models are notoriously difficult to fly, because of the short nose, and all the drag of multiple very thin wings and all the rigging - leading to tail-heavy models that glide like housebricks.
Twisted elastic-band power isn't my forte. (Rubber means something very different in those Southern States!) but I do know that the short fuselages mean a very brief power duration, which doesn't help with the other problems!
-
You could perhaps try to explain why your models keep crashing, and what happens to cause it. We might be able to provide a solution.
But there is a very relevent saying we all use - Nose heavy flies badly, tail heavy flies once.

if you are calm and collected when all about you are going berserk - you've missed something important!
Last edit: 31 Oct 2024 07:00 by Eric. Reason: added a comment
Thanks: Klipkopwildlife, jon.in.swansea, old ugly

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31 Oct 2024 07:41 #3 by Klipkopwildlife
Replied by Klipkopwildlife on topic Sopwith triplane rubber power.
I inserted your pictures for you Tom, welcome by the way. Looking at your pictures, I'd say you could teach us a thing or two about model building, but, it looks heavy.
We're also old, most of us also carrying a few age related side issues, however, we always enjoy helping anyone who has questions to ask.
Getting a bunch of sticks to fly nicely is very satisfying.

Do it now, you may never get another chance
Thanks: Eric, old ugly

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31 Oct 2024 07:49 #4 by Klipkopwildlife
Replied by Klipkopwildlife on topic Sopwith triplane rubber power.
I've bumped Danny Fentons SE 5A build to the top, he's a master builder, sadly we haven't seen him in a while.

Do it now, you may never get another chance
Thanks: Eric, old ugly

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31 Oct 2024 10:35 #5 by Magpie
Replied by Magpie on topic Sopwith triplane rubber power.
Very impressive, it looks a very neat build & the covering looks excellent.
What wingspan is it & was it built from a kit or plans?
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31 Oct 2024 10:36 - 31 Oct 2024 10:51 #6 by Quorneng
Replied by Quorneng on topic Sopwith triplane rubber power.
Tom
That is one beautifully made model. I am envious!
However it could be argued that the Sopwith Triplane is about the worst full size plane to copy for rubber power.
The 9 cylinder Clerget was very heavy compared to Sopwith's super light weight construction thus its very short nose and the narrow chord wings make the CG position rather critical. The broad chord wings of the Pup are rather better in this respect although the "proper aerofoil" wing section of the Fokker Triplane is even better in terms of docile handling characteristics.
It was the fact that electric motors are so heavy compared to balsa and tissue that suggested to me WW1 rotary engine types suited electric power. In my case this was for indoor Round The Pole flying. This meant plenty of "electric" from a mains transformer no batteries required. I chose to model a Sopwith Pup. 
 
18" span and light, just under 2 oz, of which the electric motor accounted for 50%! Geared so the high revving 12V slot car motor could turn a scale diameter and pitch carved balsa prop. As the "electric" required two wires the final feature was to make it control line as well. Not to do aerobatics, the lines were far too short, but to be able to fly and land "gently"(some of the time!) to protect what was a very delicate model.
It actually flew pretty well but its scale thin under cambered wing section possessed a wicked stall if you tried to fly too slow nose high just as did the full size.
I built several RTP planes along the same lines. This was all done nearly 50 years ago long before the current super powerful brushless motors and LiPo batteries but it did teach me how to build light.
If your Sopwith Triplane is anything to go by I eagerly look forward to seeing pictures of some of your other planes. 
Simon
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Last edit: 31 Oct 2024 10:51 by Quorneng.
Thanks: Klipkopwildlife, jon.in.swansea, old ugly

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31 Oct 2024 14:36 #7 by old ugly
Replied by old ugly on topic Sopwith triplane rubber power.
thank you folks for the replies.
this model is from a Dumas kit (i like their model kits), it is 18"wingspan, it does seam heavy and there is not much rubber in there. i didn't expect it was going to fly all that well but i had to try. it now hangs from the ceiling.
the most successful flyers for me are the ones designed to fly with a rubber band which i have had pretty good success with. although old looking planes are my favorite to build. they hang up from the ceiling until a grandkid wants to take one home.
i have just started a Dumas 18" Fokker Eindecker E 111. at first glance i think it may fly ok. we will have snow here very soon so test flights will wait until spring. 6 month of snow and below 0c here every winter. makes for a long building season.
i have been toying with the idea of timed electric freeflight but i may have to build a bit bigger for that.
thank you folk
and for sure when it comes to flying i wll be asking questions
Thanks: Klipkopwildlife

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31 Oct 2024 17:53 #8 by Klipkopwildlife
Replied by Klipkopwildlife on topic Sopwith triplane rubber power.
You'll be amazed at what's available for small models in the electrification department.

Do it now, you may never get another chance
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31 Oct 2024 22:48 - 31 Oct 2024 23:08 #9 by old ugly
Replied by old ugly on topic Sopwith triplane rubber power.
A few years ago i found a vendor that sold  a free flight motor and timer. ( in the UK) the kit came with props, He said that the motor maybe too big for an 18" plane and suggested 24 to 30" but, which is no problem for me but he could not send a battery. At that time i went to all the hobby stores here in search of a battery with the correct specifications and the correct connectors as well as not to heavy,  i had no success. Any on-line vendor that had batterie would not ship  to me. i had totally forgotten i had it until just a few minutes ago. 
i am going to start the search again.
then maybe i will build another one of these. Fieseler 156 Sorch kits for electric ff 
      
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Last edit: 31 Oct 2024 23:08 by old ugly. Reason: picture added
Thanks: Eric, Klipkopwildlife, Quorneng

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01 Nov 2024 07:48 - 01 Nov 2024 07:54 #10 by Eric
Replied by Eric on topic Sopwith triplane rubber power.
That looks like an old 2-wire brushed 'can' motor, such as used in slot-cars, probably intended for NiCads (Nickel Cadmium) despite the No Lipo sticker.. Modern brushless motors are much more powerful and efficient.
Changing plugs and sockets is easy enough, once you have learned to solder.
Lipo (lithium polymer) batteries are readily available now, the important things are the cell count, and the amp/hours they can deliver (or be charged at). They will be labelled as - for example, 3S 1000 - or three cells in series (one after the other) 1000mah - or 1000 milliamps (1 Amp) for an hour,
A single lipo cell will have about 3.8 volts in it (3.5 when discharged) so a 3S 1000 can deliver about 11.4 volts at 1 amp for one hour. OR 2 amps for 30 minutes, and so on, right up to it's maximum discharge rate, usually known as the burst power. That doesn't mean the battery will blow up, just that it can deliver X amount in a short burst.
Lipo's can be obtained now from tiny one-cell  things such as used in indoor electrics, right up to multi-cell things like housebricks, for BIG models.
They all need a dedicated Lipo charger, which works very differently to one that you would charge your car battery with. You can research that at your leisure.

IMPORTANT!!! Never but never leave  a battery IN the model, or charge it when the battery is hot, or at the wrong settings. That can cause the battery to overheat, then you can get thermal runaway, where the battery first puffs it's casng up, and then can burst into flame that you cannot put out! (You have probably seen the horror stories of electric cars, or those electric scooters or bikes, bursting into flame).
So never never charge batteries inside the home or shed, and never leave them unattended. Always charge them on and in something that will not burn - just in case.
On the other side, a battery that is not connected to anything, so it is not charging or discharging, will be totally inert unless you damage it in some way - (stick a nail through it, short-circuit the wires, etc). I have never yet managed to burn a lipo, and I have dozens!


Brushless motors are a very different construction. The windings are fixed, and the magnets spin round, turning the outer casing (the bell) and the propeller. These are called 'out-runners'. There are no brushes to wear down or arc. All the work is done by the speed controller. They are both three-phase a/c - not the old dc - and they both have a three-wire connection. The motors are identified by dimension and the KV number - how many rpm's per volt. The speed controller 'reads' the motor, and electronically switches the power between the three wires to give motor rotation, and is rated by how many amps it can pass. If the motor turns the wrong way, you can either change any two of the three wires over, or perhaps programme the speed controller.
The battery, of course, only has two heavy wires, pos and neg, which connect to the speed controller.

Now, I fly using radio gear, so my speed controllers also plug in to the receiver, thus powering the receiver and servos AND getting the throttle commands FROM the receiver, using a light three-wire cable just like a servo would. But that is probably irrelevent for you.
If I am correct, a free-flight speed controller works more like a timer-switch, in that it is only on for a pre-set time, then turns off, so the battery cannot over-discharge, which would ruin it. But that is outside my knowledge range, you would need to read up on that.

As you put, the Post Office will not carry or deliver lipo's. It is the same here in the UK, batteries or liquids are not permitted. BUT courier services WILL deliver them. Of course, if you are going to buy ONE 1-cell battery, that works out expensive!

That is just touching the surface of the matter, though. A bit of internet hunting will give you a lot more reading to absorb, in your own time.
There is more info on this forum, too, if you look for it!
-
As an silly aside - I never did figure out how batteries (and all electrics!) are measured the way they are - to my mind, an amp should be a million milliamps, not a thousand! 

if you are calm and collected when all about you are going berserk - you've missed something important!
Last edit: 01 Nov 2024 07:54 by Eric. Reason: typo
Thanks: Klipkopwildlife, Quorneng

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01 Nov 2024 12:58 #11 by Magpie
Replied by Magpie on topic Sopwith triplane rubber power.
I hadn't heard of Dumas kits so inspired by your models I discovered they are available in the UK so have ordered a Lysander from
www.arrowmodels.com/
They are based in Scarborough & closed their retail shop in 2015 so only do online now. Further to a comment that if you don't use your local shop you'll lose it......... A big city like Newcastle hasn't got one so what chance of one surviving in Scarborough? According to google maps its a 2h 26m drive from Consett. in the last 2 years we've had holidays there & it was nearer 4 hours because of the roads & traffic.
As I've said before our nearest one is Leeds (2hrs plus each way).
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01 Nov 2024 13:05 #12 by Magpie
Replied by Magpie on topic Sopwith triplane rubber power.
Note to Eric
1 Ampere is a charge of 1 Coulomb moving past you in 1 second.
A milli. is one thousandth as in millimetre, not to be confused with millipede which doesn' mean it only has a thousandth of a leg.
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01 Nov 2024 13:33 #13 by old ugly
Replied by old ugly on topic Sopwith triplane rubber power.
i had looked into VMC models but by the time i get them they would be too much money, although i have bought pilots from them. where i am Guillows and Dumas are the easiest to obtain.
My opinion, Dumas planes are nicer to build, good plans and nicer lazer cut pieces. (sand the burnt edges or them may show through the skin). I have built their 18" up to 30" all turned out decent. And i have a few more builds lined up. 
i think you will like their kits


tom
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01 Nov 2024 13:45 - 01 Nov 2024 13:58 #14 by old ugly
Replied by old ugly on topic Sopwith triplane rubber power.

 



i am not sure it i am quoting this correctly. 

i have found batteries on amazon that the motor supplier recomended  but they have a differnet connetor and i would have to change it.
can you identify and tell me what type of connector is on those battery so i can try to find and change them onto my timer?
if so that would be great.


 
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Last edit: 01 Nov 2024 13:58 by old ugly.
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01 Nov 2024 13:57 #15 by old ugly
Replied by old ugly on topic Sopwith triplane rubber power.
Magpie.
that is a nice looking plane. i am putting it onto my next order aswell.
very cool
Thanks: Klipkopwildlife

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