"Collectors" kits: To build or not?

Hi,
New here, although far from new to aeromodelling. I was rather obsessive about it up to around 1980, then life and work(also aeronautical) got in the way and stayed there. Now I'm an old and crusty Aero-Engineer who's drifting back to it. My interests were primarily free flight rubber powered scale and still have the remains of a few of them. However, question:

I've acquired some vintage (pre-WW2) kits in various states of degradation (they belonged to my father). Some are remains of models that he built, one part built, all restorable with a bit of effort. Rarities like a FROG 25" span Lysander and a little FROG BA swallow and parts of Leopard and Hornet Moths from the same range. I could restore the kits as kits, but these things were produced to build and fly so my instinct is to do just that. After all, if we collect ancient kits then, when it comes our time to keel over, they'll be flogged off through house clearance and then end up on someone else's shelf until they do likewise. Cycle repeats and model never fulfils its purpose while slowly degrading through time-rash.

What is the general view on building from really old kits, rather than preserving them/building copies? (I also have several engines from the '40s, one from 1941, that need airframes so this may come up again).

Nice to meet you all.

Jon

Hi Jon welcome to our small but very good forum, we get a few who come and join us then never post again, so i hope you stay around an post a lot of pictures of your builds and join in with all the threads

jon
I fear you may find that where balsa is used it may be rather brittle after all this time.
For most building a "new" antique plane design is considered a more practical option.
I have a couple of 50 year old balsa planes. I certainly don't remember balsa being that delicate when I built them.
Of course the choice is down to you whether to actually fly a true vintage kit.
Do let us see plenty of pictures of any vintage build you do, before you fly them.   

Hi Blackbird,

I'll aim to engage properly, but life is still pretty busy as, although I attempted to retire to a degree, I seem to have more work than ever. Current builds are a VMC Blackburn which I am attempting to put on a strict diet as it is way too heavy as designed (far too much wire where it isn't needed), and a DH71 for free flight with a mills 0.75 which is on my drawing board at present. Totally unsuitable shape for free flight, which is why I am doing it of course.

Quorneng: Yes, old wood can appear brittle. This is home ground for me as I have spent much time around wooden structures. The usual reason is the moisture content, and when stored indoors in a heated house balsa does go that way. In my own experience, reconditioning it in the equivalent of a cool draughty hanger sorts it out after a while, lthough things like acid content in paper coverings probably don't help over time. Note that proper jap tissue is acid free, which is why archivists use it in book preservation.

Eric: Thanks for the comment on instability of old plans. I was aiming to get the plans copied for use as the originals tend to get very brittle and I suspect that Outerzone might appreciate the resulting scans.

By the way, I'm on the South Coast, Titchfield, in the green gap between Southampton and Portsmouth. Biggest issue is finding somewhere to fly free flight that isn't miles away. All the local clubs seem to be radio only and my old club at Oxford is a bit of a drive (although they have one of the best sites in the UK).

My oldest kit is a KK Cessna 170 from their IC powered Super Scale free flight series.
 
Certainly not pre war but from 1966 bought at what was the only but good model shop in Loughborough which surprise, surprise no longer exists.
I built the wing and cut out the fuselage formers but went no further as the bit I did like was the wing being held on by rubber bands from inside the cockpit and pulling on a single hook at the wing centre. The complete wing is in my loft somewhere!
It got put in the loft of my parents house as the complexities of electric powered flight rather took over my aeromodelling interest before my career took precedence for the next 30 years.
After my parents died it got transferred to my various lofts along with the rest of my model making history!
If ever completed it would be 3 channel RC and electric powered.   

Ali who owns Als Hobbies has a huge collection of these type of kits, when i was in his shop one time he showed around, and showed the collection
Amazing stuff 

Quorneng: I also built from the KK Cessna 170 kit back in the late '70s. Powered it with a DC Merlin. Not a great airframe as it had a few typical Albert Hatful quirks (illogical choice of grain direction etc. Still have the engine.

Klipkopwildlife: All of my engines are in running condition. They have been oiled prior to storage. I've picked up a couple of real oldies which were gummed up, Eta"5" for example plus a very early Frog 100 Mk1 (which won't get much running as it's ridiculously delicate and has a cast iron piston running in a cast iron cylinder), but gentle heat soon releases them. One that I inherited from another source is an Aerol Super Hurricane Mk2, forerunner of the Elfin series of engines and a bit of a rare beast. That one had a contra piston fit that was looser than the piston fit so a happy evening was spent machining and honing a replacement (the M.E.N website has an excellent article on making and fitting contra pistons btw). I mix my own fuels as some engines demand unusual ether content (very early comp ignition/very small engines). As for modern oils, castor oil has specific properties that make it almost unbeatable for model compression ignition engines, not least is a very high breakdown temperature. A couple of my really old compression ignition engines had recommended fuel mixes that are strange to modern eyes and use (for example) Castrol XL30 oil (still available as a "classic" oil for vintage vehicles). Those work OK, and are certainly OK for the limited running associated with free flight and my two earliest engines (pride of the collection is a Dyno Mod1 from 1941) come with a recommendation to use a higher than normal oil percentage in the fuel.

Old balsa is an interesting problem. As well as a few remains/kits, my father also had a small stash of pre-war balsa. As one of my roles in the past was to keep a technical structural eye on the airworthiness of some very early aircraft, behaviour of ageing wood structures is of interest to me. One mentor in this had been an advisor to the Shuttleworth collection. That their hangars are draughty and unheated is partly his doing as, for timber to display its best mechanical properties it must be at the correct moisture content. Around 12-15% by weight is good. Balsa is no different and keeping a  balsa airframe in a centrally heated house will result in a more brittle structure in time. I've tried some of that pre-war balsa, both very dry (pretty useless) and reconditioned (left to stabilise in an unheated outbuilding) not astounding, but way better. I'm not convinced by the age argument, but there was certainly some lousy timber to be found in old kits on occasion, which was lousy timber when it was put in the box.

I have a very soft spot for old, long stroke, compression ignition engines. Their handling is a bit different but they swing big props at modest speeds and sound and smell fantastic. Against that, some modern engines are incredibly good with respect to handling. I have a PAW .55BR that is earmarked for a free flight Miles Sparrowhawk that I drew up (to come after the DH71). Running it in, I could hardly believe how easy it was to start and how slowly it could be persuaded to run, without any of the usual burbling that decompressed compression ignition engines usually display. It was buying that engine (on a whim) that convinced me that I really needed to get back to model flying again as it reminded me of what I had missed.

Don't get me started on old engines!
Probably the most unlikely is this petrol 2 stroke that my dad picked up at a SMEE jumble in about 1955.
 
My dad did the research and found it was made by Henley Products and dated from 1946.
Then there is my dads 5cc Kestrel.
 
Another petrol 2 stroke, with an integral fuel tank, internal fuel passage and a rotary valve. Spark ignition so pre war. An Edgar T Westbury design all a pretty advanced for its day.
They are both free turning but unrun either by me or as far as I know by my dad.
Then there is the 5cc petrol 4 stroke that my dad made from scratch to demonstrate "proper" fuel economy.
 
My dad did a lot of test running with it as well as a short run by me several years after his death.

A rather nerve wracking affair as I do not possess the engineering skills to mend it should it break. 
Unusual in that it uses a separate oil tank with a dry sump recirculating oil system so runs on straight pump petrol. 
The sad part is there are more!  

That four stroke is a gem. Does it have an oil pump?

Just tried to post pictures. It seems to want a web link and I can't just drop a file?