So - You want to learn to fly?

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27 May 2024 10:57 #16 by Magpie
Replied by Magpie on topic So - You want to learn to fly?
I think I've answered my own question.
In his model the ailerons are moved by control horns outside of the fuselage so there is a fair distance between them, I guess over 100mm.
In the original build log I saw on the RC Groups there is a photo showing him using torque rods from inside the fuselage so the horns are the same distance apart as the holes in the rotor arm.
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27 May 2024 13:33 #17 by Klipkopwildlife
Replied by Klipkopwildlife on topic So - You want to learn to fly?
That's how we used to do it, the problem is, without careful link arrangements you can't have aileron differential. Given the cost and strength of servos it makes more sense to split the load. Each on a separate channel, then you can have differential, flaperons and anything else you want to try, with the added bonus that should one servo fail you will still be able to control the aircraft.

Do it now, you may never get another chance
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27 May 2024 14:58 - 27 May 2024 21:32 #18 by Eric
Replied by Eric on topic So - You want to learn to fly?
Plus - the old torque rod method  unless everything is extremely well made, you can get 'slop' - microscopic slack in the various linkages, and if the wong (Chinese!?) gauge of wire is used, it can twist under load. Both of these will lead to control surface flutter, which in turn usually leads to something, usually the surface,  falling off = crash!
You can also find methods where a single central servo pushed or pulled two rods, one to each wing side, that then coupled to a 90' bellcrank, which then coupled to the control horn. That way there is no wire rod to twist, but introduces three more pivot points instead - the two connections to the bellcrank AND the mounting pivot. It also means you are limited to size of wing that will fit into your chosen transport method, as it is impractical to keep disconnecting the rods inside the wing! Another disadvantage is you need a more powerful therefore bigger servo, which when mounted in the wing, will stick out and be prone to crash and transport damage, if it doesn't knock a hole in the side of the fuselage when the wing twists!
Also it makes the comment in the second half of Klippy's comment impossible
With a servo in each wing, directly driving a straight rod to the control horn, there is less room for slop and flutter, and it also means that a physically smaller servo can be used - as Klippy put, you have halved the load on the servo.

if you are calm and collected when all about you are going berserk - you've missed something important!
Last edit: 27 May 2024 21:32 by Eric. Reason: typo
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27 May 2024 17:33 #19 by Klipkopwildlife
Replied by Klipkopwildlife on topic So - You want to learn to fly?
Here's another observation, I imagine the builder modified an earlier installation, putting the servos so close to the fuselage. It would be better to put the servos halfway along the full width aileron, then any twisting moments (there will be some) are halved. Moving a long surface from one end is never good engineering practice.
We're not trying to dis you Magpie, it's just telling it like it is. You've embarked on a long journey, best you start with the right information.

Do it now, you may never get another chance
Thanks: Eric

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27 May 2024 19:01 #20 by Quorneng
Replied by Quorneng on topic So - You want to learn to fly?
Just a little engineering point about servo linkage.
On the plane you showed the servo the servo is mounted so its shaft is vertical to the under surface. The aileron on the other hand moves on an axis that is parallel to the under surface, The link is therefore having to take up some misalignment particularly at full deflection. It does this by having a degree of' 'free play' in the link joints unless a ball joints are used. 
The way to get over this is to mount the servo so it axis is parallel to the aileron axis like this.
 
The servo arm pivot and aileron horn move in the same axis so they stay in line over the full servo travel.
It may not look significant but it does reduce slop and improves the mechanical efficiency of the linkage. Done neatly it also reduces the aerodynamic drag of the servo installation.   
 
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28 May 2024 13:14 #21 by Magpie
Replied by Magpie on topic So - You want to learn to fly?
Thanks for the comments, I've been reading & thinking about them. I'd also bought some of the bits so I can get a feel for them.
So the plan at the moment is to use an aileron torque rod with the servo on its side partially within the wing with its actuator and the horn of the rod within the fuselage & their axes parallel and nearly at the same height.

The rod is 12swg. which seems stiff enough to me to rotate what will probably be a 25mm x 6.5mm trailing edge aileron. I intend to use a rod running the full length of the wing (400mm) with several bearings which are held by spikes into the aileron & the wing. The rod would be free to rotate in the bearings fixed to the wing but epoxied to those in the aileron so as to move it.
I feel that the balsa would need to be hardened where the spikes are so they don't crush the balsa. Would ordinary wood hardener do that & also glue the sikes in?

The spec of the SG90 servo gives a torque of 1.8 Kg.cm (nearly a bag of sugar at 2cm) & I think that will be more than enough.
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28 May 2024 13:32 #22 by Magpie
Replied by Magpie on topic So - You want to learn to fly?
My son is into Raspberry Pi so I'll try to get him to program a test bed so I can try things out as soon as the wing framework is made.
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28 May 2024 13:37 - 28 May 2024 13:41 #23 by Eric
Replied by Eric on topic So - You want to learn to fly?
with the servo on its side partially within the wing - -
That will give you a very weird assymetric differential - one rod pushing straight, and the other pushing up at an odd angle! And - unless the two torque rod horns are very close together, you are building in a mechanical twist, again.  ((like we did last summer!)) 

If you insist on a single servo and torque rods, the servo is best mounted  so the output disc/arms are parallel to the surface of the wing, with one rod from each side going to one torque horn. That way the loading is along the length of the servo body, and both rods are parallel to the wing surface.
You will need to make a V notch along the trailing edge of the wing AND in the aileron, to accommodate the torque rods, or you'll have a big unsightly gap.
Make sure you degrease and rough up the outsides of the tubes, or the epoxy won't bond to them, but with a DROP of oil on the wire, so any stray epoxy won't glue it all solid!
It would be mechanically much simpler with one servo on each wing panel, driving one aileron each via a short rod, Plug the two servos into a Y lead, and the Y lead into the servo output of the rx, using 'keepers' so they can't accidentally (or through vibration) come unplugged.
Then, your two short rods connect to the servos - each on the (say) outside arm, which will automatically give you ailerons going in opposite directions! (You can use both rods to the inside arms if you wish, same effect, but opposite surface deflection!).
But it is your choice - it is your model!

if you are calm and collected when all about you are going berserk - you've missed something important!
Last edit: 28 May 2024 13:41 by Eric. Reason: added a comment
Thanks: Klipkopwildlife, Flytilbroke

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28 May 2024 14:42 #24 by Magpie
Replied by Magpie on topic So - You want to learn to fly?
I'd taken the advice to use two servos, one on each wing, it mustn't have been clear in my post.
You mention the gap between the wing & the aileron - I have been puzzling over this. There has to be some sort of gap for it to rotate both ways.
The bearings/hinges are 4.75mm diameter & the wing chord is 180mm. I don't think this gap would be too obtrusive.
V-notches just at the hinges, which are 13mm long, about 1mm deep would only leave a gap of the thickness of the wire, 2.64mm which would only allow for a rotation of about +/-20deg. What sort of angle would be needed?
Thanks: Eric, Klipkopwildlife

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28 May 2024 16:41 - 28 May 2024 16:44 #25 by Quorneng
Replied by Quorneng on topic So - You want to learn to fly?
The argument about aileron gap hinges about the loss of effectiveness of the aileron by allowing the higher pressure air on one side leaking to lower pressure on the other side reducing  the effectiveness of the aileron when it is deflected. Air leakage will also effect the efficiency of the wing itself past the aileron hinge line even in normal flight.
It follows that any control surface gap is likely to be more significant in a high performance glider than for most power planes particularly at model sizes where other aerodynamic effects tend to dominate.
In my experience any loss of aileron effectiveness in a normal size model is unlikely to be even noticeable with a gap up to 2mm.
 
Last edit: 28 May 2024 16:44 by Quorneng.
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29 May 2024 08:10 #26 by Eric
Replied by Eric on topic So - You want to learn to fly?
Magpie, I think you will find that 20' each way is more than enough, unless you want to fly aerobatics!!
There are several factors involved, though - area of the control surface vs area of the wing, chord of the surface vs chord of the wing, and airspeed - being the main ones.
Should you get the opportunity to look at a fast turbine model, you will find that the control surface movements are a very few degrees, whilst those of a very slow indoor 3D one look ridiculously huge.
Think of your control surfaces as brake pedals - every deflection from neutral is creating increased drag - which slows the aircraft down.

My preference is to have a lot of exponential dialled in, so that movements around neutral are small, but at full stick deflection, I get a lot of control deflection, thus the model will potter about like a trainer, but at the same time can perform all kinds of gyrations, without the bother of rate switches (and trying to recall which switch I set the rates on, when something goes wild!) and which way was on or off!

if you are calm and collected when all about you are going berserk - you've missed something important!
Thanks: Klipkopwildlife, jon.in.swansea

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29 May 2024 08:25 #27 by Klipkopwildlife
Replied by Klipkopwildlife on topic So - You want to learn to fly?
However some radios have voice functions that are programable and tell you what you have selected, even down to an adjustable delay in operation should you flick the wrong one.

Do it now, you may never get another chance

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29 May 2024 12:10 #28 by Magpie
Replied by Magpie on topic So - You want to learn to fly?
I have been looking at the "rules" to determine the size of ailerons.
To start with I have increased the size of the trailing edge section that I am using to 32mm x 8mm in order to give more beef for the bearing spikes to go into.
The numbers I have found are; 20% of chord, (180mm), 60% of half span, (400mm), 12% of half wing area, (72,000 sq mm).
So applying these numbers to the dimensions I have (with a wing rib spacing of 50mm); 32mm is 17.8%, 300mm is 75%, 32mm x 300mm is 9600sq mm, 13.3%.

Now should I position the aileron next to the fuselage to reduce the flutter, position it at the tips to increase the effectiveness or position it in the middle of the 400mm?

Rather than notching the bearings into the balsa I could add a small filler above the bearing to reduce the gap to less than 2mm.
See attached sketch;
   
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29 May 2024 14:33 - 29 May 2024 14:48 #29 by Eric
Replied by Eric on topic So - You want to learn to fly?
I'm trying to work out what you mean -
- - - - should I position the aileron next to the fuselage - - - - -
Are you talking of the aileron - or the aileron horn?
The aileron itself should be out near the tip, for best effectiveness, with the horn that is driving it roughly central to the length (the span) of the surface, to mnimise the twisting effect of the air pressure when in flight.

Now, all those numbers on your sketch - what do they signify?
I'm assuming you are talking metric, so if your root chord is 4 (cm?) - just over 1.5 inches - that is a very tiny wing!
Then what are the 32 and 9.5? (16.1/4 inches total) That's a pretty small half wing!
What is the 8 for?
And if the root chord is 4, then the tip must be less than 1 (aout 3/8ths of an inch) if that sketch is anything like scale
What are the three parallel lines? and what are the two concentric circles?
I fear that you are overcomplicating and overthinking everything!

A typical aileron is about 50% of one half wingspan and about a quarter of the chord, positioned slightly in from the wingtip, with the control horn in the centre of the surface - but with the holes for the rod positioned vertically over the hinge-line - as shown in Q's post on the 27th

if you are calm and collected when all about you are going berserk - you've missed something important!
Last edit: 29 May 2024 14:48 by Eric. Reason: added a comment
Thanks: Klipkopwildlife, Flytilbroke

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29 May 2024 15:27 - 29 May 2024 15:28 #30 by Quorneng
Replied by Quorneng on topic So - You want to learn to fly?
My advice, rather against modern thinking, is to position the aileron as far out on the wing as practical. Full size do not use inboard ailerons ailerons except in exceptional circumstances like speeds in excess of mach 0.6 coupled with flexible wings. Not likely circumstances in the model RC world.

Now if you really want to limit air leakage, remove the hinge V slot and improve the aileron's effectiveness.
 
Takes a bit of work to do and the pivot point requires the hinges to be "inset" into the aileron.
I have done this on a couple of my planes but more to see if I could rather than expect any significant aileron improvement. 
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Last edit: 29 May 2024 15:28 by Quorneng.
Thanks: Klipkopwildlife, Flytilbroke, jon.in.swansea

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