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The useful life of 1.2 NiCads & NiMh's?
- Heaton
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07 Jan 2015 13:55 - 07 Jan 2015 14:08 #1
by Heaton
The useful life of 1.2 NiCads & NiMh's? was created by Heaton
Has anybody got reliable information on this subject through long and varied experience?
Are certain brands vastly superior to others?
What makes the difference between good brands and duff ones?
If you've bought NiCads/NiMh's new, how do you know how long the vendor has had them in stock and, if they've never been charged, in spite being in stock for a long time, how does this affect their life?
I'll give you an example why I'm asking this important question: my wife bought a liquid soap dispenser and needed the two batteries replaced once the two 1.5v originals had 'packed a sad'. I had some 2500 Mah NiMh's, which had had little use, but were approx. 4 years old - they showed 1.53v after charging, but they failed to power the soap dispenser. Why do they show sufficient voltage if they've 'got no guts' in them? Now, I'm worried that all my six 4.8v NiMH Rx packs will need replacing, as they all are over three years old, but maybe have only been charged once a year to keep them 'healthy'.
All information gratefully received - thanks in anticipation!
Are certain brands vastly superior to others?
What makes the difference between good brands and duff ones?
If you've bought NiCads/NiMh's new, how do you know how long the vendor has had them in stock and, if they've never been charged, in spite being in stock for a long time, how does this affect their life?
I'll give you an example why I'm asking this important question: my wife bought a liquid soap dispenser and needed the two batteries replaced once the two 1.5v originals had 'packed a sad'. I had some 2500 Mah NiMh's, which had had little use, but were approx. 4 years old - they showed 1.53v after charging, but they failed to power the soap dispenser. Why do they show sufficient voltage if they've 'got no guts' in them? Now, I'm worried that all my six 4.8v NiMH Rx packs will need replacing, as they all are over three years old, but maybe have only been charged once a year to keep them 'healthy'.
All information gratefully received - thanks in anticipation!
Last edit: 07 Jan 2015 14:08 by Heaton. Reason: bad grammar
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- Quorneng
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07 Jan 2015 14:50 #2
by Quorneng
Replied by Quorneng on topic The useful life of 1.2 NiCads & NiMh's?
What size batteries does the soap dispenser use?
I suspect it requires quite a high burst of current which it gets from the original Alkaline? batteries. Alkaline are quite good at this sort of intermittent duty and have a long shelf life.
NiMh batteries, particularly the small high capacity ones, apart from being 1.2V rather than 1.5V of 'dry' cells (ignore the voltage at full charge it quickly falls away) are not so good at high current applications and they get worse at this over long periods time.
The early digital cameras suffered from this where the 'big' capacity AA NiMh actually performed no better than cells of 1/4 the nominal capacity.
For your soap dispenser my advice would be to stick to good brand Alkaline cells.
I suspect it requires quite a high burst of current which it gets from the original Alkaline? batteries. Alkaline are quite good at this sort of intermittent duty and have a long shelf life.
NiMh batteries, particularly the small high capacity ones, apart from being 1.2V rather than 1.5V of 'dry' cells (ignore the voltage at full charge it quickly falls away) are not so good at high current applications and they get worse at this over long periods time.
The early digital cameras suffered from this where the 'big' capacity AA NiMh actually performed no better than cells of 1/4 the nominal capacity.
For your soap dispenser my advice would be to stick to good brand Alkaline cells.
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- Heaton
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07 Jan 2015 15:54 #3
by Heaton
Replied by Heaton on topic The useful life of 1.2 NiCads & NiMh's?
Thank you for your reply, although it appears that you did not read my post well enough to note that I wrote that the soap dispenser takes 1.5v Alkakine batteries.
What I omitted to mention is, that I bought some new NiMh 1500Mah rechargeables and these do power the soap dispenser sufficiently.
I am aware that, immediately after charging, NiCads and NiMh's very quickly drop in voltage and settle down.
You suggested buying normal 1.5v Alkaline batteries for the soap dispenser, but my reason for not wanting to do so is because of their excessively ridiculous high price in Cyprus - North & South. I might mention that I bought some from our equivalent of The Pound Shop and they were absolutely useless!
When I replace my rechargeables, I think I'll go for Nickel Zinc rechargeables - www.maplin.co.uk/p/nickel-zinc-aa-rechar...tteries-4-pack-n37ka.
Presumably, these will, when made up into Rx packs, be OK and won't destroy my RX's?
What I omitted to mention is, that I bought some new NiMh 1500Mah rechargeables and these do power the soap dispenser sufficiently.
I am aware that, immediately after charging, NiCads and NiMh's very quickly drop in voltage and settle down.
You suggested buying normal 1.5v Alkaline batteries for the soap dispenser, but my reason for not wanting to do so is because of their excessively ridiculous high price in Cyprus - North & South. I might mention that I bought some from our equivalent of The Pound Shop and they were absolutely useless!
When I replace my rechargeables, I think I'll go for Nickel Zinc rechargeables - www.maplin.co.uk/p/nickel-zinc-aa-rechar...tteries-4-pack-n37ka.
Presumably, these will, when made up into Rx packs, be OK and won't destroy my RX's?
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- Quorneng
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07 Jan 2015 17:32 #4
by Quorneng
Replied by Quorneng on topic The useful life of 1.2 NiCads & NiMh's?
Hmmm! tricky.
At 1.6V each four cells could risk an rx. It would depend on its specification. Some rxs are rated up to 9V.
Three cells would give the same voltage as four NiMh but how secure this would be will depend of the voltage/current characteristics of the NiZn cells as they discharge.
You mentioned 1.5 volts in you original post but I cant see 'Alkaline'.
At 1.6V each four cells could risk an rx. It would depend on its specification. Some rxs are rated up to 9V.
Three cells would give the same voltage as four NiMh but how secure this would be will depend of the voltage/current characteristics of the NiZn cells as they discharge.
You mentioned 1.5 volts in you original post but I cant see 'Alkaline'.
Thanks: THE BLACKBIRD, Heaton
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- Eric
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08 Jan 2015 18:13 - 08 Jan 2015 18:16 #5
by Eric
if you are calm and collected when all about you are going berserk - you've missed something important!
Replied by Eric on topic The useful life of 1.2 NiCads & NiMh's?
It is most unlikely that you will find Nicads around now. Due to health and safety, they have been replaced by NiMH, which are nowhere near as good, although they have the same physical size, voltages, and currents.
NiMH do NOT hold their charge for very long - due to the chemistry, they 'leak' up to 50% of a full charge in a month, even if not connected to anything at all.
Also - the bigger the capacity, the smaller the burst current they can deliver, although they can deliver a small amount for a longer time. If you over-charge, or over-discharge them, current-wise, they can get VERY hot, to the point of exploding. (They also get hot as they near the full charge!)
If you regularly fast-charge them, you shorten their working life, as well. (The number of charge-discharge cycles).
There ARE some good NiMH cells, though, look for the 'Hybrid' ones, which do not self-discharge, and can hold a full charge for up to a year. Naturally they cost a bit more.
A normal 'cheap' NiMH cell, left uncharged, and not connected to anything, will eventually (about 6 months) run itself down to the point where the chemistry breaks down, and it will not charge at all, or if it takes a charge, it cannot deliver much current.
What happens when you 'pull' current from a cell is - it's voltage drops, and the harder it has to work, the more the voltage drops. When the load is removed, it rapidly recovers again, so if you put a test meter on the terminals, it will show a full charge, or nearby, so the meter is really telling lies! The only way to really test a cell is to put it on load, and measure the current flow and the voltage AT THE SAME TIME.
If you are using NiMH in anything critical, it is best to replace them with new, on a regular basis.
NiMH do NOT hold their charge for very long - due to the chemistry, they 'leak' up to 50% of a full charge in a month, even if not connected to anything at all.
Also - the bigger the capacity, the smaller the burst current they can deliver, although they can deliver a small amount for a longer time. If you over-charge, or over-discharge them, current-wise, they can get VERY hot, to the point of exploding. (They also get hot as they near the full charge!)
If you regularly fast-charge them, you shorten their working life, as well. (The number of charge-discharge cycles).
There ARE some good NiMH cells, though, look for the 'Hybrid' ones, which do not self-discharge, and can hold a full charge for up to a year. Naturally they cost a bit more.
A normal 'cheap' NiMH cell, left uncharged, and not connected to anything, will eventually (about 6 months) run itself down to the point where the chemistry breaks down, and it will not charge at all, or if it takes a charge, it cannot deliver much current.
What happens when you 'pull' current from a cell is - it's voltage drops, and the harder it has to work, the more the voltage drops. When the load is removed, it rapidly recovers again, so if you put a test meter on the terminals, it will show a full charge, or nearby, so the meter is really telling lies! The only way to really test a cell is to put it on load, and measure the current flow and the voltage AT THE SAME TIME.
If you are using NiMH in anything critical, it is best to replace them with new, on a regular basis.
if you are calm and collected when all about you are going berserk - you've missed something important!
Last edit: 08 Jan 2015 18:16 by Eric. Reason: typo
Thanks: THE BLACKBIRD, blue123, alan cantwell, Heaton
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- Heaton
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11 Jan 2015 12:17 #6
by Heaton
Replied by Heaton on topic The useful life of 1.2 NiCads & NiMh's?
Many thanks Eric! You have provided nearly all the answers I need. I don't know if this forum allows members to recommend one brand over another, or to advise which brands and companies to avoid.
I've read and watched YouTube clips on how to rejuvenate all types of batteries by various de-sulphation devices and methods - do any of you know much about this?
Have you any advice on using LiPo, or Li-Ion batteries in both Rx and Tx applications where [tired]NiCads or NiMh's are currently used? If voltage droppers are needed, what is the correct method?
I've read and watched YouTube clips on how to rejuvenate all types of batteries by various de-sulphation devices and methods - do any of you know much about this?
Have you any advice on using LiPo, or Li-Ion batteries in both Rx and Tx applications where [tired]NiCads or NiMh's are currently used? If voltage droppers are needed, what is the correct method?
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11 Jan 2015 17:41 #7
by Eric
if you are calm and collected when all about you are going berserk - you've missed something important!
Replied by Eric on topic The useful life of 1.2 NiCads & NiMh's?
lipo and rx - that's easy - just use a UBEC between the lipo and rx, it is just the same as using a speed controller for electric flight, which in the smaller sizes, has a voltage reduction circuit built in, but they are also available as 'stand-alone' units,commonly used with higher current speedo's. (So if the speedo fails in flight, the rx still works!)
Some rx's will operate on a higher voltage than the standard 4.5 - check your manual, but make sure the servos will as well otherwise you could 'fry' them.
The same applies to transmitters - some like the Taranis will happily take a lipo plugged directly in, but you have to remove it from the tx case to charge it. Others need some form of UBEC, ie Spektrum which works on four cells, but the 8 cell Futaba's need more thought.
You could also void your guarantee by doing this.
A good brand of NimH that I use is the Vapex one, they are on e-bay or you can mail-order from
www.vapextech.co.uk/
They also have a good range of chargers!
I have no connection with the company other than as a satisfied customer.
Some rx's will operate on a higher voltage than the standard 4.5 - check your manual, but make sure the servos will as well otherwise you could 'fry' them.
The same applies to transmitters - some like the Taranis will happily take a lipo plugged directly in, but you have to remove it from the tx case to charge it. Others need some form of UBEC, ie Spektrum which works on four cells, but the 8 cell Futaba's need more thought.
You could also void your guarantee by doing this.
A good brand of NimH that I use is the Vapex one, they are on e-bay or you can mail-order from
www.vapextech.co.uk/
They also have a good range of chargers!
I have no connection with the company other than as a satisfied customer.
if you are calm and collected when all about you are going berserk - you've missed something important!
Thanks: Flytilbroke, THE BLACKBIRD, blue123, alan cantwell, Heaton
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- alan cantwell
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11 Jan 2015 18:44 #8
by alan cantwell
i have 2 sides
no you dont,
yes i do,
Replied by alan cantwell on topic The useful life of 1.2 NiCads & NiMh's?
2 great informative and clear posts eric, and well worth a thank you,
i have 2 sides
no you dont,
yes i do,
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- Quorneng
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11 Jan 2015 20:58 #9
by Quorneng
Replied by Quorneng on topic The useful life of 1.2 NiCads & NiMh's?
My old Futaba 6A (it is old) has a 2200mAh 'Tx' 2s LiPo in it with no problem. (I did check it was ok with 8V and I don't have to remove it from the case to charge it as it came with Futaba, JST charge and balance plugs already fitted so all I have to do is remove the battery cover and plug in those 'spare' leads to plug straight into the charger.
Of course there is no LiPo battery protection so accidentally leave it switched on and it is likely to kill the battery (and it does
) but apart from that it works very well indeed.
Of course there is no LiPo battery protection so accidentally leave it switched on and it is likely to kill the battery (and it does
Thanks: Heaton
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11 Jan 2015 22:43 #10
by Eric
if you are calm and collected when all about you are going berserk - you've missed something important!
Replied by Eric on topic The useful life of 1.2 NiCads & NiMh's?
Simon - the main reason for removing a lipo before charging it is the - just in case - scenario - just in case it decides to spontaneously combust - then it can't take the tx with it!
The Taranis set will not charge the lipo through the case socket, so unless you have made a Y lead of JST's, you have to unplug the fiddly little thing from a recess, each time - but they come supplied with a six cell 2000mah nimh anyway, and that will last all day (and a bit!), so you only gain in run-time, with a lipo. (I'm using one! ((Nice set!)) )
The Taranis set will not charge the lipo through the case socket, so unless you have made a Y lead of JST's, you have to unplug the fiddly little thing from a recess, each time - but they come supplied with a six cell 2000mah nimh anyway, and that will last all day (and a bit!), so you only gain in run-time, with a lipo. (I'm using one! ((Nice set!)) )
if you are calm and collected when all about you are going berserk - you've missed something important!
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12 Jan 2015 12:50 #11
by Quorneng
Replied by Quorneng on topic The useful life of 1.2 NiCads & NiMh's?
Eric - I would agree about the possible risk of a LiPo fire but my old second hand Futaba cost very little (and certainly a great deal less than a Taranis!
} and the LiPo was half the price and had a bigger capacity that a NIMh pack.
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