A go at a Foamie

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24 Jun 2025 09:52 #16 by Quorneng
Replied by Quorneng on topic A go at a Foamie
magpie
Technicqll glue is not a true "contact" adhesive. It does stick but really requires any joint to be preferably clamped together for an hour or so but only gets true rock hard after 12.
It does "string" very easily so try to avoid getting it on your fingers. At blood heat it dries fast so your fingers then stick to everything else, particularly any bits of foam!

Water based acrylic will be ok but it has to be hand brushed or air brushed painted NOT rattle can. The propellent used may attack the foam.
No sealer required. My own solution to get a good finish is to sand any big blemishes with fresh fine sand paper then paint. When really dry a light sand with fine paper will cut off the burrs but leave the rest of the surface. Then a final coat, maybe thinned a bit.

Remember foam is used simply because it is a light weight material so don't expect a high gloss finish. To do so will add significant weight which rather defeats the point of using the foam in the first place!
Hope this helps.
 
Thanks: Eric, Klipkopwildlife

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24 Jun 2025 16:56 - 24 Jun 2025 16:57 #17 by Magpie
Replied by Magpie on topic A go at a Foamie
The CF came today so I've coupled a 2mm rod up the stiffener to the 9g servo & it works fine. The servo now needs to be properly fixed in & the tail & elevator fixed on.
The CF is very stiff to manipulate in the confined space under the wing, I wonder if the centre of a snake would be better?

The battery is a nice snug fit in the cockpit well.

 
 
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Last edit: 24 Jun 2025 16:57 by Magpie.
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24 Jun 2025 20:27 #18 by Eric
Replied by Eric on topic A go at a Foamie
It may be the camera angle, but it appears that the servo is mounted too high, so there is a bend in the cf rod!
Cut away that lump of foam and the balsa? stick, then make a notch n the fuz side, so the servo arm can be dead in line with the outer tube.

if you are calm and collected when all about you are going berserk - you've missed something important!
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25 Jun 2025 08:34 - 25 Jun 2025 08:35 #19 by Magpie
Replied by Magpie on topic A go at a Foamie
The servo is only temporarily mounted in the fuselage to try it out.
I have positioned the height of the servo so the hole in the arm is in the same horizontal plane as the CF actuating rod but at the moment I haven't cut away any of the fuselage side at the back of the servo to avoid weakening it so there is a horizontal bend in the rod.
So now I have to establish that the stiffness of the CF around the bend isn't too much for the servo to handle. I may replace the CF with the centre rod of a snake which bends more easily & so avoid having to cut away the fuselage side.
CF is used to stiffen things so it may be the wrong choice for a flexible bend.
I could also use a smaller servo, I have some 4g ones on order.
 
Last edit: 25 Jun 2025 08:35 by Magpie.
Thanks: Eric, Klipkopwildlife

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25 Jun 2025 10:46 #20 by Quorneng
Replied by Quorneng on topic A go at a Foamie
I fear there is a real danger that the total friction of long carbon rod coupled with the side forces on the rod at both the servo and elevator horn end will consume much of the servo power particularly the smaller the servo you use. Note the side forces and thus the friction from miss alinement are greatest at the limits of servo travel which is also when the load created by the control surface is at the greatest.
In other words a servo will move the control surface easily around "neutral" but can struggle (and draw more amps from the BEC) if maximum deflection is required when flying at high speed.
You mentioned using a snake inner rather than the carbon rod.
IMHO I would have thought this was a good idea. Not only is a snake inner made of a low friction material but it is also flexible enough to handle any alignment issues at each end yet it would still be supported over the majority of its length by the close fitting foam hole along the rear fuselage.
Hope it all works out.
 
Thanks: Eric, Klipkopwildlife, Flytilbroke, THE BLACKBIRD

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27 Jun 2025 17:56 #21 by Magpie
Replied by Magpie on topic A go at a Foamie
A had a go at straightening the wings this afternoon, they're straighter but I'm not sure if they're straight enough.
What did you use for hinges? I cannot make them out on your photos & the join is quite tight?
I've used these T-bearings on the tail of the Buzzard but they do give abit of a gap.
I think the CF rod would help straighten & stiffen the foam but I think the bearings would pull throught the foam. The buzzard is balsa with Bodpodge & polyester fabric.
 
 
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27 Jun 2025 23:15 #22 by Eric
Replied by Eric on topic A go at a Foamie
For a simple, slow-flyng lightweight, Blenderm adhesive tape is perfect.
It is almost clear, stretchy, and sticks almost as well as Gorilla tape, without the dense black and heavy backer.
Blenderm is a 3M product, and is used in hospitals for temporary patches such as a cotton wool pad over a hypodermic stab-hole. You may have to resort to e-bay to get it, if your local model shop or chemist doesn't sell it. It can be obtained from HobbyKing as well, when they have a stock in, but it goes fast!

if you are calm and collected when all about you are going berserk - you've missed something important!
Thanks: Klipkopwildlife, THE BLACKBIRD

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28 Jun 2025 09:49 - 28 Jun 2025 09:51 #23 by Magpie
Replied by Magpie on topic A go at a Foamie
I've been mulling over how to do the ailerons.
If I've understood things correctly the effect of an aileron is proportional to the turning moment, (Area x Radius).
So your tip ailerons (not counting your depron) are
125 x 540 = 67.5
If I made the ailerons with the width as marked on the wings but only going up to the tip dihedral this would be
130 x 410 = 53.3
which is 21% less
If I made the ailerons the same width as the inner marked aileron then this would give
35 / 22.5  more which works out as 23% more than tip ailerons.
You have some added area with your depron so it would approximately balance out.

This would avoid have to straighten the wings.
Am I correct? Or am I not aware of some other esot-Eric effect?
Someone else where mentioned Dutch Roll.
Last edit: 28 Jun 2025 09:51 by Magpie.
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28 Jun 2025 12:11 #24 by Magpie
Replied by Magpie on topic A go at a Foamie
I've looked at some videos on hinging ailerons.
My conclusion is that for the ailerons on the wings which only have a single chamfer it'll be best to use the Blenderm but for the tail which has a double chamfer on the moving part I'm using Mylar hinges. I have some & have cut the slots & dry-fitted them.
The instructions for the Slider & buzzard say to use Mylar but I wasn't happy trying to cut a slit in balsa. With the foam having no grain to lead the scalpel astray it was quite easy.
I understand cyanoacrylic & Superphatic glues are both compatible with the EPO foam.
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29 Jun 2025 00:10 #25 by Quorneng
Replied by Quorneng on topic A go at a Foamie
magpie
Your calculations are fundamentally correct which shows a smaller tip aileron can be as effective as a bigger inboard one. The other part of the equation is to do with aerodynamic efficiency or rather the drag caused by aileron deflection. Obviously the smaller size aileron will crate less drag when being deflected an important consideration in a glider.
Being so far out on the wing if the drag is not equal between the left and right ailerons there will a significant unwanted yaw effect.
With same degree of deflection a "down" going aileron creates more drag than the up "one" so if the ailerons are being used to create bank to help a turn the yaw they create works in opposition to the rudder. With a long span wing and a small rudder the aileron yaw can be such as to make a turn rather difficult. It can even lead to an unexpected spin if flying close to the stall.
Finally note the trailing edge extensions I added t both my FX707 was t improve the aerodynamic efficiency of the wing. The fact it also significantly increased the area of the tip ailerons was an added benefit! 
   
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29 Jun 2025 07:00 - 29 Jun 2025 07:02 #26 by Eric
Replied by Eric on topic A go at a Foamie
As Q put, - but think of the long (span) wing as a lever and a fulcrum, the fulcrum (pivot point) being the fuselage. a longer lever (the wing span) requires less effort to move the load.
Where it gets complicated is when you start to think about the drag - for a given length of lever, a larger (in chord) control surface of the same length (span) deflecting over a smaller amount creates less drag than a smaller chord surface at the same distance, which needs a greater deflection to achieve the same roll rate. And you can reach the point where the surface 'stalls' and has even less effect - or merely becomes an air-brake.
Compare the control surface sizes of an indoor 3D model against those of an outdoor faster model!
Then - you have to consider the static mass of a wing - a heavier (longer span) wing takes longer to start and stop reacting to the aileron deflection than a lighter (shorter span) wing, which is why a small model always seems 'twitchy' when compared against a larger one, and why a glider has (generally) a longer fuselage from the c of g to the tailplane than an aerobat.
Aerodynamics is a complex and huge field! And then, because you cannot scale down the air molecules - model aero's are even more complex! The more you think about it, you realise the less you know!
There is a book titled "Model Aircraft Aerodynamics" written by Martin Simons, - if you really want to confuse yourself! It might still be in print.

www.amazon.co.uk/Model-Aircraft-Aerodyna...ripbooks%2C53&sr=1-1

if you are calm and collected when all about you are going berserk - you've missed something important!
Last edit: 29 Jun 2025 07:02 by Eric. Reason: typo
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29 Jun 2025 12:25 #27 by Klipkopwildlife
Replied by Klipkopwildlife on topic A go at a Foamie
I wouldn't use any Cyano products on foam without testing on a piece first, Simon uses Uhu Por on a lot of his foam airplanes. Personally I don't like it, I tried it on PLA filament and it fell apart when the model fell to the floor. Almost any zero solvent glue will work, I personally like Pattex Extreme Repair.
 
It's certainly available in Holland, my Nephew got me some. Do not buy the 100gm container, it time expires very quickly, something to do with the container not sealing properly. Ask me how I know.

Do it now, you may never get another chance
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01 Jul 2025 14:20 #28 by Magpie
Replied by Magpie on topic A go at a Foamie
I've had a rethink.
I had decided to do without the rudder on the basis that in my training I have just been using "bank & yank". However in light of Q's remarks about aileron drag causing yaw I wondered if some aileron/rudder mix might be being used to correct this so I am reinstating the rudder & using two servos & the snake channel.
The servos I'd ordered (ES9051) have arrived, they are almost a perfect fit in the wing cut-outs apart from needing a bit cut out for the wiring.

On the glue front I found this
deluxematerials.co.uk/products/super-phatic
Towards the bottom there are some PDF links, two of which cover foam.
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01 Jul 2025 22:59 #29 by Quorneng
Replied by Quorneng on topic A go at a Foamie
Magpie
As far as "bank & yank" goes you can largely eliminate the worst effects of aileron adverse yaw by using aileron differential, more up deflection than down. In many cases and particularly on the FX707 with a top hinged aileron "down" travel is limited by the angle of the slot whereas "up" can go as far as you like! 

My own view is that with a generous aileron differential, at least 2:1, and a fixed rudder you are unlikely to get into any sort of stable spin or even a severe rotation resulting from a wing drop stall. It is quite easy to apply the wrong rudder at the wrong moment. Not such a problem when its fixed!

Just as an aside I do not use the Tx option to apply the differential but do it "old school" and set the linkage to achieve it mechanically. It just one less Tx programme to worry about.
The only thing I regularly programme on the Tx is dual rates on both the ailerons and elevator.
I only have one plane that has a rudder "mixed" with the aileron and that's on a Super Cub. 
Thanks: Eric, Klipkopwildlife, THE BLACKBIRD

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03 Jul 2025 11:39 - 03 Jul 2025 11:45 #30 by Magpie
Replied by Magpie on topic A go at a Foamie
I have been reading up on aileron differential. This site in particular explains it very simply.
duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=setting+aileron...ch%3Fv%3DU3AHgk0SUoI

His linkage is on the top whereas mine (on the FX707) is underneath but to sum it up; If the pivot point on the horn is set back from the hinge point then the greater movement is on the opposite side of the wing to the linkage.
I've drawn it out for the inner aileron & using the horn position moulded in the EPO I get 28 deg up compared to 23 deg down. On that basis I need some rudder mix.
From my point of view I think its easier to mix it than start moving the horn.
My FlySky-i6 can be programmed to generate differential swing using separate servos and an auxiliary channel but its much more complicated.

I'm going to build in the inboard ailerons/flaps & outboard ailerons a la Q so I have the option when it comes to flying it.
I have set the transmitter up so that channels 5 & 6 (remembering that they are handed so need separate servos) can move the flaps from the 3-position switch.

Which brings me to the next technical question.
If I paint the flaps & ailerons to make them easier to see will the Blenderm still stick alright to the painted surface?
 
Last edit: 03 Jul 2025 11:45 by Magpie.
Thanks: Klipkopwildlife

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