A go at a Foamie
- Klipkopwildlife
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Here's another way, use screws and nuts to secure the blades. Tighten so they're stiffish to move, run them up on the motor to about 60% (so they line up nicely) then find some way of mounting the whole thing in a prop balancer.
Do it now, you may never get another chance
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- Eric
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if you are calm and collected when all about you are going berserk - you've missed something important!
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- Magpie
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I fitted a collet for the 3.17 shaft on an A2212 1400Kv in the folding prop & ran it up (very carefully) to the power level where the LE2204 failed. It vibrated but not as much, (and survived!).
My test rig is built of quite rigid 2 x 1. It could be it exacerbates the vibration compared to a model with less resonace. But could the EPO have taken the vibration or would the motor have just broken free?
The motor broke at a point in the fixing part at where holes I think weakend it. There is only about 1.5mm of material left as far as I can measure. I don't see the point of these holes, they can't lighten the motor by much.
There is a basic weakness in the design of these Outrunner motors in that not just the motor but the prop assembly at the far end is supported at one point right at the back which needs to be strong enough.
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- Magpie
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I'm not sure whether to buy another LE2204, I'm not happy with the strength of the mount because of the holes, or whether to buy a different one.
If the fixing plate with the holes in was bent so the rotor wasn't parallel with it that would cause vibration.
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- Quorneng
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You could try a balanced fixed 6x3 prop just to make sure the balance problem is not from the folding prop hub.
I presume you have run the motor at full power with no prop to check that the motor itself is well balanced.
You are quite right that a too rigid test mount can magnify any balance issues.
Its a bit like a washing machine. Wet clothes are never likely to be in balance so the motor and drum are suspended on springs with dampers which allows within limits it to rotate about its actual CG rather than the bearings centre line.
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- Eric
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If something is fixed - not moving - it cannot vibrate!
With no power connected, no prop fitted, etc, but back (mounting) plate on - if you turn the motor with your fingers does something catch? The only resistance you should feel is the slight 'cogging' from the magnets in the rotating bell.
Have you mounted the non-rotating part of the motor, with the wires and coils - correctly?
How does that part fasten to the fuselage? Some have a four-legged 'star', while others - the very small ones - have a thing like a top-hat that the motor has a neck that fits into, and locks by grubscrews - usually at 90' to each other. The 'star' or the 'top-hat' should be fastened to the mounting plate on the fuselage - usually F1 or the extended motor 'box'.
Have you used the correct-size top-hat? The motor neck should be a close sliding fit. With the grubscrews tight, it shouldn't turn, rock or wobble. The four-legged star type should screw to the non-rotating part of the motor with SHORT screws that don't foul the windings or the bell magnets. (they are usually provided with the motor - and are typically 5mm long!) Wth those tight, the motor back-plate cannot move. (use a drop of releasable lock-tite on the screw threads, so they cannot work loose over time).
With NOTHING attached to the motor, when you power it up, does it vibrate? It shouldn't.
When you power up the bare motor, it shouldn't vibrate at all - if it does, is the magnet bell wobbling? That could indicate that the motor bell is out of line on the motor shaft,and you need a different motor. You MIGHT, with a lot of luck and patience- manage to straighten it out.
OR it could be that the shaft is bent just past the bearing, so the bell appears to be wobbling. If you can get one, the shaft can be replaced.
Is the shaft bent past the end of the magnet bell? Spin it, and see if the tip of the shaft is oscillating.
If there is no problem here, then the vibration HAS to be an out-of-balance prop, hub, or spinner.
You say that you cannot get a clear indication of prop balance. What are you using to balance them?
Don't forget that static balance, and rotating balance - are different. That is why a garage spins the car wheel to get it balanced, by adding weights to the rim, when you change a tyre, and the balance will be in, or out, depending on the rpm's! It is rare to get a balance that is spot-on at all rpm's.
You want a balance with as near to zero friction as you can get. Mine is a U frame, with a magnet in each upright leg,and a steel pointed shaft that is not quite long enough to touch both sides. (The magnets try to pull the steel shaft towards themselves, so it is effectively suspended in free space) On the steel shaft are two rubbery cones - pointing towards each other - that can be slid along the shaft..
The prop being balanced is trapped between the two cones, the points of which slide into the prop bolt-hole. Thus the steel shaft is centred in the prop, which is free to turn on the assembly, but not within the cones. The only contact (friction) is where the one point of the steel shaft is touching the magnet (the other end doesn't quite touch).
The heavier blade will always drop down - pulled by gravity.
The steel spindle is so free-running that a light breeze will spin the prop - so the balance cannot be used out-doors - or in a room with windows open or a fan running!
if you are calm and collected when all about you are going berserk - you've missed something important!
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- Magpie
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First of all it is a fixing plate, not a fixed plate, although it is fixed to the plane/test rig, because it does the fixing of the motor. But lets call it a backplate.
It is not now possible to try running it with a fixed prop but I did run it without a prop initially. I also ran it for a while at lower revs with the folding prop.
It was only as I increased the revs above 50% on the stick that the vibration started, this is like what happens in a car if the wheels aren't balanced.
I had already asked on here about the prop being at the far end of the long shaft & I think it was Q said he had cut his shorter. So I took the motor off the rig, removed the prop, & shortened the shaft with a junior hacksaw holding the shaft by its end in a vice & supporting the motor body with my other hand.
I then refitted the prop & put it back on the test rig.
Running it at lower revs seemed ok & I was able to take two sets of readings of Voltage, Current, Power & Thrust below 50% on the stick. As I increased the revs towards 75% the vibration started & I only had time to read the Current before the motor failed.
I immediately pulled back the throttle & disconnected the battery .
I'll now do another post with more information.
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- Magpie
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readytosky.com/e_productshow/?1167-LE220...ane-KT-F3P-1167.html
It is not the top-hat-mounting style, the backplate is assembled to the rotor, it doesn't have a separate star mount as on the A2212 motors.
It was fixed to the test rig arm by the four fixing holes with 2mm screws with nyloc nuts at the back.
The cables were led away through a hole in the arm close to the motor to keep them out of the way.
Turning the motor by hand felt like brushless motors do, some cogging at each pole but there was nothing catching.
I went through the initialisation routine to calibrate the ESC with the transmitter.
At low revs there was no indication of anything wrong.
I have since fitted an A2212 motor using the same ESC & ran it so there is nothing wrong with the ESC, even afterwards.
Even now there seems nothing wrong with the rotor & prop shaft (apart from being separated from the mounting plate).
My prop balancer is the Dubro style with cones etc but the folding props have to be hung on the end of the shaft, not between the cones, as there isn't a through hole.
I have tried the props (I also have a 7.5 x 4 which has never been run) both with the collet free to rotate on the balancer shaft & clamped onto it. There was no difference between the two & I couldn't improve the balance.
As the motor failed there must have been something wrong somewhere but at the moment I don't know what.
My main criticism of the motor is that the holes in the "mounting star" are quite large & weaken it.
It is only 1mm thick (A2212 stars are 2mm) & as far as I can measure is 6.5mm wide where the 4mm holes are so that only gives 1.25mm width at each side of the hole.
I have ordered a replacement so will have a good look at that before risking a folding prop on it.
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- Klipkopwildlife
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If you make a U shape out of wood and bolt a Razor blade at the top of each leg you can balance the prop by putting a piece of correctly sized Silver steel rod in the back of the hub and use a long screw in the nose, put the whole thing on the blades and check the balance.
I have to agree that back plate doesn't look 'fit for purpose'.
Do it now, you may never get another chance
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- Quorneng
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I note Ali Express sell this motor with a 12A ESC . This suggest the motor should not be run with a prop/battery combination that exceeds 10A max to keep within the 20% "headroom" rule for cheap ESCs!
I do wonder if a 6x4.5 is a bit big.
I run my motors on a particularly light weight 6x3 folder on a 2s and a 5.5x3 version with a 3s. Neither required balancing or exceed 10A at full power.
I also note this motor is widely used on indoor planes where weight it at a premium rather than robustness.
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- Magpie
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The readings on the fatal run were;
LE2204 1800KV 6 X 4 Folding
STICK CURRENT VOLTAGE POWER THRUST
0% 0.1 12.1 1.2 0
25% 0.7 12.1 7 21
50% 1.5 12 20 49
75% 5.4
Could it be that even with the prop perfectly balanced its quality is such that it will vibrate above a certain speed?
The blades are quite a loose fit on their pivot screws.
I could do with a noise meter to measure the vibration.
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- Eric
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If Magpie takes the prop nut off, and withdraws the clamping collet, there is a hole through the prop so it can be balanced the regular way.
Then - if the clamping collett, washer, and prop nut are fitted to the motor - without the prop, THAT can be checked for vibration. They are often made of very soft metal that bends easily.
If that is clear then put the spinner on, and check again!
That motor mounting thing looks awfully flimsy. I've not seen that type of mount before, and as stated, if it is intended for indoor ultra-light models - obviously it cannot take the stress.
It looks as though the three wires feeding the motor have been mangled when the motor broke free, so I'd suggest you carefully untwist them, and ensure that the insulated sheathing of each one isn't damaged. If two wires should short under power - goodbye speed controller. If one is broken, that would give the motor 'the staggers',and it could be that that broke the mountng. It's timing would be upset, and it would try to run in both directions at the same time!
Sometimes - buying cheap isn't the most economical!
if you are calm and collected when all about you are going berserk - you've missed something important!
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- Magpie
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The motor mounting is very thin ( & aluminium) & I cannot see it taking any stress. What I want to know is how others are getting away with it. Its the same as Q is using.
It cannot be seen from the photo but the twisting extended to the uninsulated copper winding. Thats why I am surprised that the ESC escaped unscathed.
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- Quorneng
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It is actually very hard to get off if you ever want to solder it!
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- Eric
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if you are calm and collected when all about you are going berserk - you've missed something important!
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